Inside the Music Sync Business with Elyse Schiller

How do songs get placed in Netflix shows, commercials, films, and video games - and how much money can musicians actually make from music sync licensing? In this episode, Mirav talks with music sync licensing expert Elise Schiller about the business behind sync deals, music placements, and licensing songs for TV, film, streaming, advertising, and gaming.

Elise explains how songs are pitched to music supervisors, what makes a track “syncable,” how sync licensing deals work, and why one placement can completely change an independent artist’s career. 

If you want to explore more creative careers, from musician and sculptor to Broadway wig makers, photographers, TV producer, and many more check out our Creative Jobs Category where you'll find interviews, salaries breakdown, and real stories from people making a living doing creative work.

Connect with Elyse:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emschiller/

Website: https://www.gsmfiera.com/

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Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation

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Transcript

Cold Open Placement Changes Everything

SPEAKER_01 0:02

We had a New Jersey band, Rock and Scroll, that it was a rock band that had no social media presence, and we had a placement on Virgin River, and their numbers went sky high.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 0:15

And this happens all the time.

From Artist To Sync Expert

Mirav Ozeri - Host 0:17

Hi, welcome back to How Much Can I Make, the podcast about careers and jobs. I'm your host, Miravozeri. Before we start, I'd like to mention that next week's show is about the business of franchising. If you want to know how franchising works, tune in, you don't want to miss it. But this week we dive into another hidden side of business most people never think about: sync licensing in the music industry. How song ends up in Netflix shows, commercials, video games, and major ad campaigns. Music sync expert Elise Schiller takes us behind the scenes of one of the most competitive and fascinating corners of the music industry. So let's turn to my conversation with Elise. First of all, Elise, thank you so much for joining the show. I'm so happy to have you here. I was really curious about the syncing business.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Well, I'm happy to be here, and that's what I do. That's a big part of what I do is sync.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 1:17

But before we get into the syncing, you've been in the music industry for a while, doing different things, correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, since I was a little girl, Lily, I was performing in San Francisco and shows and things like that. And then I got a record deal and moved to Los Angeles in the 80s, and I had a deal, a recording deal with Columbia Records, and I had two billboard songs out on the charts. Wow.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 1:44

So how how did you get into syncing? First of all, if you can explain to us what sync is.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Sure. Sync means synchronization of music to picture, whatever form the media is, whether it's film, television, gaming, what have you. And it's the licensing process where a song is placed in any kind of a project. There are two sides of a sync. For a song, there's the master recording side, right? It's the actual recording. Oftentimes in situations where there's a label, the label will own the master recording. And then there's the composition publishing side, which is the actual writing of the song. When you make a placement on a show, say a TV show, and it's 10K, it's 5K for the master and 5K for the publishing side. How did you get into it? For years, after I was a recording artist, I was a composer-producer for main title themes and promo campaigns. For years, I had a studio on the West Side in LA. And my partner and I at the time, Jim, we pretty much did all the main titles and promo campaigns for a lot of the entertainment companies like e-entertainment television. And internationally we did for many networks. And we got really into doing that. Probably we did, I did that for about 12 years. And then when I started my family, some of the budgets were coming down a bit in custom music. And I was starting to look around and see, ah, maybe I should learn more about this whole library business. It just started in around 2008, 2009. It was becoming more of a thing that the companies would go to libraries. So I decided to go to work outside of my own company and work for this company, Angry Mob Music, at the time. I really had to separate myself from being an artist and producer at that time. And it was a really big deal to go, oh, now I'm going to do be on the business side in a full way. And I ended up working there for about three and a half years, doing all film, television, and advertising for them and making all their placements for their emerging talent, which was amazing at the time. Because also a friend of mine was doing the AR, and she was just awesome and brought in the cream of the crop emerging artists. And it became like, oh my God, how creative it is to actually help these artists make their music a little more emotionally charged or picture. And then if they've already, some of them already had existing music that was amazing, and being able to hear it and put it in with the right shows and everything, and make these placements for them and give them this incredible new form of revenue

The Pitch Process And Pre Clearance

SPEAKER_01 4:34

at the time.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 4:34

So how does it work? Producers come to you with a request for certain kind of mood, certain kind of music, and then you go and search?

SPEAKER_01 4:43

So first you spend years nurturing your relationships with music supervisors, music producers, producers, directors, showrunners, all the people that create and develop content, whether it be brands or film, television, gaming, whatever, trailers. And then having those relationships and being a really a trusted resource where you understand you have everything in place, like all your clearance on every song. You know how to streamline that process. And you're right there giving them things that probably within the wheelhouse of what they're asking for. Yes. So they come to you like daily, we'll get several searches, whether it be from ad music supervisors or film and television or gaming, promo studios, whatever it is, films. So we have agreements with probably about 75 to 100 artists that we've signed to our roster.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 5:42

Those artists have to go with you when it comes to syncing.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yes. So mostly we have exclusive arrangements with specific songs with artists, and sometimes we'll do non-exclusive, particularly if it's a more known artist and there's a lot of different players, like a label and a different publisher and all these kinds of things. Then we'll make specific deals. But we have to know that when we pitch a song to a supervisor or to anyone, we know that there's not going to be a problem. No one's going to stop the process once the process starts.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 6:16

Did it happen that you are you were asked for a certain kind of music, you had the artist in mind, and you went to the artist and the artist said, I'm not interested?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

In our world, in the sync world, you just never you just know you can't do that because you would nobody would work with you. If you if a music supervisor who can go to 20 million people and you all of a sudden say, Oh, I have to pull that song because the artist didn't know or whatever, they're never gonna work with you ever again. So we all know as sync agents and as sync representatives that we must have everything cleared and pre-cleared before we actually pitch it.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 6:53

Oh, okay. So if you go to if you get a request and you go to the music supervisor, do you usually give them like a 10 songs, seven songs?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, it depends. Sometimes they state how many songs they want. Just on every day, we won't give more than 10 songs, sometimes five or six, depending on the request and how specific it is. But some people I've had ask for unlimited. We need because they're gonna pull it into their kind of library of music that they go to when they're working on a show or a film, and they'll just be able to go through it. So they don't they want as many songs. But that's not everybody. Usually it's anywhere from five to ten songs.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 7:37

So you mentioned gaming, which I found interesting. Is this like a new area in the sync business that you get requests for music? No, it's just been more and more.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

It's always been there, video games and and also trailers for video games. But for us lately, we've had more requests. Uh, we weren't working in that area as much. We're more film, television, and advertising. But now we've been getting, we I think we we just got told we have a couple of songs and a new game that, but I have to confirm that this week. But yeah, it's great. It's it's every day is a different day with different media that you're working with.

Pricing Deals Across Ads And TV

Mirav Ozeri - Host 8:16

So what pays the best? Is it advertisement, gaming, is it film, is it TV, streaming? What's the best for an artist to get into?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

For emerging artists, which is of course different than really recognizable known artists, but for emerging artists, it can be, I would say it it in the ad space is the best space. It's always been, but right now it definitely is. And it can be anywhere from a for a digital ad that's down and dirty and a short form or something, it could be much lower for short form, maybe anywhere from even 500 to 10k. But for regular everyday ads, it's anywhere from 20K to 350K. Whoa.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 9:04

Do they get royalties too? No. No, it's a one-time deal. You give the rights for a one-time deal. Yeah. If a producer produces now everything is a series, 13 segments, 12 seconds. So they license it.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

It depends on how much music they're liking that you're pitching. Most of the time it'll be it could be uh several songs within several episodes of the season, or it could be one in one episode. It just depends on what they're resonating with from what you're pitching.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 9:46

What is the difference between licensing and sync?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Oh, so what I wanted to say about that is the actual word is synchronization, right? Okay. Okay. So the sync process is licensing.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 10:01

Oh, okay. I got it now.

What Makes A Song Syncable

Mirav Ozeri - Host 10:03

What makes a good piece of music syncable?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I think it's gotta have a really solid feeling that it evokes, that it's accessible enough lyrically, if it has lyrics, that it can work in many different situations.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 10:21

So you mentioned before $350,000 that rang a huge bell for me. Is that for a known artist?

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Known song? It no, it could be if those kind of that kind of money they would rather probably have a known artist. But if a song really resonates and works, and it's an emerging artist, they may try to get you down a little, even though they told you the budget was say 350. But but not really, because the budget's the budget. And if a song works and it's really resonating and it really fits the demographic they're looking for to work with and to represent, it's gonna, it's just what their budget is.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 11:04

And it's great for the artist because I know Sia had the song on Six Feet Under. Uh-huh. And I think most people didn't know about her before.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, that's another thing about Sync, is that it actually, especially for artists that are trying to get more visibility or emerging artists, or even artists doing a comeback. For instance, there was a show your honor uh on HTML. And they didn't have a lot of places for Sync, but we had pitched, and it was one of our artists that actually was an authentic kind of vintage soul artist from the late 60s. And we pitched his one of his songs, and it went in, and it definitely has helped his career because immediately everybody wants to be able to get the song once they hear the song on a show and if they like it. And it this same thing happened. We had a New Jersey band, Rock and Scroll, that is a rock band that had no social media presence. And we had a placement on Virgin River, and their numbers went sky high. And this happens all the time when we do a sync with uh any artist, really.

How Pitching Work After Covid

Mirav Ozeri - Host 12:12

So you mentioned pitching before. Give me a little bit behind the scene. How does the pitching work? What do you do?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, I think pitching in years ago, before COVID, was a lot different than it is now. And we still do have face-to-face meetings and lunches and drinks and all those things, but not nearly as much. People have gotten really used to working from either their home office or their office and not having to deal with all the traffic and all that stuff, and doing Zooms and doing and just also just asking for music via emails and having a specific place where the music goes in these links, and then you just basically explaining what you're sending and why in relation to what they're asking for.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 12:59

Are you constantly searching for new artists? Your ears are always open.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, I think our ears are open, but we get so much music sent to us that it's hard really to sometimes deal with. But we try to listen to as much of the music as possible. When we think about songs, we're thinking about the depth of the emotion. We're thinking about for it depends on the media that we're thinking about. For television and film, we want it to have depth, and it could be about a breakup, or it could have uh a lot of different kinds of lyrics, but in the ad space and in brands, we want a more accessible lyric, more of a human journey or survival, or these different themes that are more accessible.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 13:43

So is it truly just about the music, or is it a lot of personal connection and oh, I'll do a favor for this artist because it's no, not any it's no favor anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

That maybe was like a long time ago. But no, now it's business. Does the music fit this project, this episode, this spot, this brand, this what they're trying to do? It's so many things that it has to hit in any given one spot.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 14:11

You mentioned before that it's 50-50, the record label and the publishing. What is your cut? How much do you get for all of that?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

We we have a pretty standard deal of we take 50% of whatever, if it's 10K, then you get five.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 14:27

Yeah, that's like a gallery for artists. I just interviewed an artist, the gallery takes 50%. I guess it's a standard in all the businesses.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, it is when you're doing all the work for in high value time that you're actually not getting paid for while you're doing it.

AI Music And The Authenticity Push

Mirav Ozeri - Host 14:44

I have a very important question. We are at the age of AI. I just saw that three number one songs were by an AI artist. They were fantastic songs, I have to say. I heard them. The artist was a black guy that was very attractive too. Right. And they were number one. What happens if a music supervisor decides to take an AI song? And it's like, screw it, I don't have to pay anybody. Nobody gets paid, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:09

I should tell you that in my world, we don't pitch AI songs.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 15:14

Yeah, I'm sure you don't, but I'm sure No, but no, and they don't want AI songs.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

For instance, still in today, I am not speaking for tomorrow. But today, the ad companies we work with, they don't want AI songs. So we are not allowed to pitch songs that even have an AI vocal.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 15:34

Why don't they want it would save them a lot of money, do you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Because it's just not authentic enough. And right now we're in a world where it's got a backlash of the AI, and thankfully, right now, today, there is a backlash, and it's of course we love that in terms of having authentic artists, and that we always want really unique and authentic artists, and that's who we sign. So that's who we represent, and that's what they want right now. That's what all these different buyers in the music world want. Authentic music.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 16:07

We hope it stays this way. I don't trust Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Right?

Mirav Ozeri - Host 16:11

No, I think they will write scripts and say somebody else wrote it, put it a name, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Well, it's happening. The way that I see AI right now is it's really a good tools for organization, for sometimes in the studio, I know there are producers that it it helps with the pr on the production side to speed certain things along, but not take away from authenticity.

Custom Versions, Fast Deadlines

Mirav Ozeri - Host 16:38

By the way, does it happen that you they want a song, but they have to re-record it for their specification and their arrangements and all of that?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yes, yeah. So my business partner is she heads up the custom side and I head up the sync side in our company. Okay. And we get hired often to do specific songs, sometimes albums for larger publishers. That's also another revenue stream that we do as a company. We because we are kind of known for doing a lot of pop music and all sub-genres of pop and hip-hop pop. And so we get hired a lot to do albums. So we have recording studios, different producers we work with, different artists we bring in, and we produce songs for these different clients. But we also do it specifically for certain projects. We just recently did a string quartet arrangement and we're doing some other ones. Can't really talk about it, but but I can say that we're still finding out what's going on with that project. But it was just so fun because I was working with a great producer and we ended up co-producing together an amazing version of a George Michael

How Artists Can Break In

SPEAKER_01 17:50

song.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 17:50

Oh wow. What an artist should do in order for him or her to be more syncable, let's say, what would be the right thing for an a new artist to do?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I would say if they want to get into the sync world, they should be making sure that they're watching a lot of content and aware of what music's being used, where it's really a whole process. If you're gonna be in sync, it's not like slap your songs into shows. It's like researching. As an artist, before you even get to a sync agency or having anyone help you, you really have to know more about what music's being used in what forms of media. And then they need to have maybe five or six songs to start with that are their best work that have that evoke emotion. Mostly it has to just be of highest quality and sound like a record.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 18:44

Do you ever get requests for classical music?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

No, we don't often get asked for to create classical music, but we have some classical composers that we represent who are more modern. And especially in the ad space, we will often pitch for more instrumental, classical, or neoclassical kind of music.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 19:05

Interesting. How long is the process? Let's say I'm a music supervisor, I come to you, I need this and this music in this mood. How long does it take you?

SPEAKER_01 19:15

It depends on their they have a deadline. If some ads all of a sudden they need something, they'll need it for the next morning. So you just do it. You just do it. And sometimes it'll be a week, and sometimes a custom project will be two days, and it has to sound amazing.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 19:33

So you did it happen that you get a request and you didn't have the right music for it?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yeah. There are times we like to hope to think that we try to make sure that we have what everybody wants. But sometimes that happens, and then we also have sync partners, friends that I have that have sync companies and we help each other out occasionally. If I don't have something and somebody didn't get that search, then we help each other out.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 19:58

You said that it's highly competitive now. You already established yourself, which is great for you. But if a new person comes and decides he's gonna go or she's gonna go into the sync business, what do they need to do?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

They have to make relationships, they have to nurture networking. Networking, but in a real patient you don't push a relationship in one time. It's an evolved overtime experience.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 20:25

I can understand that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

And that's really important for young emerging artists to understand, know the person you're talking to and what they generally like, what shows they work on, or what projects they work on, and understand them and be a finesse it and be more strategic and helpful.

Competition Rewards And Global Placements

Mirav Ozeri - Host 20:43

What's the biggest challenge that you have in your business?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Biggest challenge, I think, is that it is so competitive.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 20:52

I can't.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

And so there is a million people pitching for the same thing all the time. One good thing is that we as a company, we are more record quality sounding. We're not trying to be a library where we're quantity, we're more quality and specific, unique artists. It's more, but it's so we're a little bit more of a boutique.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 21:14

And what is the biggest reward? Do you watch every single show to see if your music is in there?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

It's just really rewarding to make a great placement in a great piece of content. It's great for the artist, it's great for you feel like, oh wow, we were right on about sending those songs or that song. It's you're supporting this great piece of content and this great, and maybe you're helping the characters. You're bringing you're you're bringing the emotion out in a different way with the music, and it's very satisfying. Do you work with international artists? We work with a lot of international artists. We have artists in Copenhagen, we have artists in every just everywhere, all over the world. And we made a deal for Google Android, I guess about a year and a half ago, with a French DJ. J D D Mad and an artist named Remy. And it was for a Google Android ad called Circle to Search on a song called Make You Look. And it was just an amazing, it just all fit together. And it was actually a song I had pitched a year before for something else, and they had gone back to it. And it worked for this Google Android ad and very amazing for everyone.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 22:22

So my last my last question do you love your job?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Oh God. Yes, so much. It's so exciting. I love working with really talented people, helping them make things work. It's amazing. Yeah, it sounds like a great business. It's as amazing as creating music, creating the placement, creating or helping create direct the production. Because a lot of times I'm brought in to sculpt the sonics or change the arrangement and kind of help produce a more syncable product. And it's great when that all works and comes together.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 22:57

Like a puzzle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, it's exactly like a puzzle.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 23:00

Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all this info. You know, I didn't I started to hear the term sync about when I started to interview my musician friends. I never heard about that before. When I was in the business, nobody used that term. They used licensing. That's what they use.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 23:19

But that was a real lesson. And then part of the music industry I knew nothing about.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Thank you so much for having me on this.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 23:27

Thank you. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Alright, I'll talk to you soon.

Mirav Ozeri - Host 23:30

Yes. Take care. Bye-bye.

Outro And Where To Learn More

Mirav Ozeri - Host 23:33

This is it for today. And if you enjoyed this episode and want to explore more creative careers, from musician and sculptor to Broadway wig makers, photographers, TV producer, and many more, head over to how much can I make that info. You'll find interviews, salaries breakdown, and real stories from people making a living doing creative work. Thanks for listening. Please like and share. And I will see you next week on How Much Can I Make.