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How Much Can I Make? - Discover Your Dream Job.
Theatre Director - Beyond the Curtain
Theatre Director
Broadway director Oliver Butler - two times Obie Award winner - shares the financial realities of theater directing and his journey from being a backstage child to acclaimed director of "What the Constitution Means to Me."
Perhaps most valuable are Butler's hard-earned insights for aspiring directors. His paradoxical relationship with theater—loving the art form and community while feeling financially heartbroken by it—resonates with anyone navigating the intersection of creative passion and economic survival. Oliver is currently working on a musical about Mary Pinchot Meyer, the woman who gave LSD to JFK, which demonstrates his continuing pursuit of unique, compelling stories.
Topics
0:00 Confidence in the Creative World
0:59 What the constitution means to me?
4:15 From backstage child to director.
10:14 What's the pay on Broadway?
17:56 Director's pay vs. administration
22:06 Advice for a aspiring directors.
27:17 The challenge
Oliver's instagram page https://www.instagram.com/explore/search/keyword/?q=oliverbutler
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Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
There are full-blown idiots in the world who get so many great things, sometimes because they are unable to even conceive of themselves not being good enough.
Speaker 1:Hi and welcome back to another episode of how Much Can I Make. Before we jump into today's conversation, I'd love it if you could take a moment to follow the show or leave us a review. It really helps us grow, and thank you. Today's guest is the acclaimed theater director, oliver Butler. He's been directing plays on Broadway and off Broadway for years, so let's dive right in and hear his story. First of all, thank you so much for giving us your time. You know, I contacted you after I saw what the Constitution means to me, which you directed on Broadway. I was flabbergasted. This was the best play I've seen in years. Not an easy play to direct, in my opinion, so I wanted to know how did it come about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I worked on it in total for probably like seven or eight years. We started in 2017, went to Broadway in 2019. It started touring in 2020. And then it toured through and after COVID by a few years.
Speaker 1:So is it still touring, by the way, because it's so timely?
Speaker 2:No, but it is the last couple of years it was the most produced play in america, which is very exciting and I I think it will continue in a lot of ways like that, whether the most produced or just heavily produced, because I think it speaks to a lot of different communities and, you know, with a small cast, I think it's also something that you know, regional places and theaters and schools and whatnot who want to do something important can do on a budget.
Speaker 1:Everybody's talking about the Constitution now. It really should be everywhere, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I haven't even really looked at the script recently about. You know, we've made changes throughout the life of it. We started in 2017. At that point, me Too hadn't even happened, because Heidi came to me in early 2017, asked me to work on it for a 10 performance run at Club Thumb, which is like a small 70 seat downtown space. We did it for 10 shows. It sold out. We didn't allow reviews because we wanted some time to work.
Speaker 2:Then we took it to Berkeley, california. We did it in Berkeley for a full run and then we brought it back to New York Theater Workshop for a full run there and then moved it to the Greenwich Street Theater for an extension and then, about a month later, we moved it to Broadway and then, after Broadway closed a week later, we took it to the Kennedy Center, now run by Trump, which there's no way we would have been brought in there under, uh, his, you know, brilliant creative leadership. Uh, I don't know if air quotes uh come through in uh, uh podcasts, but um, and we, we did it there for I don't know a weekend or something. You know huge theater. And then, pretty soon after, we started rehearsing the tour. You know you have a show that is written by Heidi Schreck, that is written about her life. You never know anything is going to work and then the question is can someone else play the role? You know, maria Dizia is one of the great actresses of our time, and so is Cassie Beck.
Speaker 1:I saw it with Heidi.
Speaker 2:You saw it with Heidi and we learned with Maria oh, other people can do this. It still works, and I think that has then extended out to these regional productions. You know, I get messages every once in a while from people who have seen the show or other people who have played the role, and I love seeing the like photos on Instagram of other people doing so.
Speaker 1:How did you get into directing to begin with?
Speaker 2:My mother is an actress. My father was an actor. My mother Pamela Payton Wright. My father was David Butler. You know they were here making plays back in the old days like 60s, 70s, 80s. My mom was only an actor her whole life. My dad was an actor and a stage manager and a director. He was actually performing in Hamlet in Washington DC when I was born. You know there's photos of him in like Shakespearean tights. You know meeting me for the first time.
Speaker 1:So as a kid, did you spend time in the theater watching them or going to rehearsal?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was backstage all the time. I was basically like raised by technicians and backstage people. I, you know, I watched these like great American plays again and again and again from the wings and so I do credit, even though I didn't know I wanted to be a director and, if anything, seeing how hard the life was in some ways was like a deterrent, I think I for a long time I was like maybe I'll just be a, I'd like to be a lawyer. I think I just wanted to do something made a lot of money and now I sort of regret not doing that. In some way I'm now stuck with the life I've chosen.
Speaker 2:But I do think watching plays from the wings and watching, like both the tech, the technical parts happening backstage and actors going from, you know, being my my sort of found aunts and uncles, to playing characters on stage my mother being my mother offstage and literally walking on stage and playing someone else's mother on stage it gave me sort of an appreciation and a love for not just the story happening on stage but sort of how it was being made around it and which has carried over into the kind of work I, like you know I have an interest in the ability for theater to present the different layers of reality. We are people facing the same direction, imagining that other people are other people. To me, it's all so false and that sort of choice to believe something together, to imagine something together, with the obvious falseness, like staring right at you to me is like all the magic of it.
Speaker 1:Did you ever want to be an actor like your parents?
Speaker 2:I did a little bit of acting. I was up at Williamstown in 1998 as an acting apprentice and I guess I thought I would do acting. I did a few shows up there and I left that summer after doing a lot of different things, and I went back to my school and I started my own directing program at the University of Connecticut. Oh, I was like, you know, I'll run an independent theater here and use all the actors who aren't being used on the main stage and I'll also assist all the directors coming in. And I just became like the student director in the school. And then eventually they started giving me cash for productions, productions because they were like oh, this is like a great way to add value to the program.
Speaker 1:So then you always like to directing right. That's where you wanted to say.
Speaker 2:I always like directing. I mean, I think I am suited to it in a lot of ways. I am going through like a midlife period right now where I really am questioning every decision I've ever made I know I'm good at it which I was not able to say for most of my life. I think I was sort of going on like vibes and instincts, but you know, I had a sense of what I was doing. Now I actually feel like a sense of facility.
Speaker 1:Is it because your play made it to Broadway that you?
Speaker 2:feel this way. I, you know, maybe some of that stuff helps. I think it's honestly just time. It's like excitement, heartbreak, excitement, heartbreak. In some ways, like the idea of becoming a director actually seems so impossible and to have like a life where you like made your you know, you made your income, like directing, like seemed like it would never be possible. But I just had this sort of like hope that it would sort of work out so when somebody comes to you with a project, what grabs you?
Speaker 1:first? The play itself, the actors that are attached to it.
Speaker 2:It's never the actors attached, although I guess sometimes that happens. Usually I'm there for like, the attaching of the actors. I I work with people, not projects, which maybe is also like one of my sort of challenges, like I fall in love with people and what I think the artist is gonna do. So my most successful collaborations have been with people who I've like already an existing relationship with and whose work in general I like. The play ends up being sort of like the current manifestation of who that person is and if I like the person and their body of work, then I usually go into a piece sort of curious about, like what they're trying to do. This time I mean I've directed more Will Eno plays than Will Eno plays.
Speaker 2:Will Eno is one of, I mean, many great talented writer friends. I think Will is a living legend who also I'm surprised that Will Eno doesn't have a genius grant or something. If you know, give a Guggenheim and a MacArthur to Will Eno. He's like one of you know a handful of, I think, like the great living authors who should be celebrated while he's here and alive and making stuff, who should be celebrated while he's here and alive and making stuff. I work with Will and a handful of other artists on anything that they bring me, because I'm not trying to find the perfect play for me. I'm trying to see how this artist is manifested in as far as plays, I love plays with a little bit of meta-theatrical play, a little bit of the showing of the frame. I love a really well-told, a handful of, like, deeply profound surprises. I like people who have a sense of form, who see, like, the structure in the play, people who understand that, like theater is a structural art, it's storytelling, but it's like storytelling within structure.
Speaker 1:How many months does it take to put a production on Broadway, let's say on the small regional theater or something?
Speaker 2:I'll basically say my estimation is this minimum for a new play. You're doing three weeks of rehearsal in the rehearsal room followed by, let's say, a week of tech. This is all minimum, right. So that's, you know, four weeks followed by probably two weeks of previews. Two to three weeks of previews, you know, and then you have opening. So that's like the minimum of like six weeks. Right before that, I estimate you have at least six weeks of pre-production. That is, you're hiring designers and working with designers to develop the concept of the show. You're casting actors and finding the right. That casting can be anywhere from one week to three weeks of time. You are meeting with people in the theater and the playwright to develop the thing, get it ready. I estimate minimum it's six weeks of pre-production. So three months.
Speaker 1:Wow, Three months. I assume Broadway pays you very well for production right.
Speaker 2:Yes, you make good money on Broadway and like for a Broadway production. If you're like a first time director, I think you're making like 26 to $30,000 plus another 26 to $30,000 as an advance on royalty For the entire time, the entire time you work.
Speaker 2:I would say Marab your face looked shocked. And most of the time when I tell people like what you actually make now look, if you're Alex Timbers or Rachel Chavkin with like a long running Broadway show, the money comes afterwards in royalties. But if you're just getting hired to do a Broadway show, like it's around like 30 grand to do the show right, and this is the top, this is the top tier again, 30 grand plus, you'll get an advance on royalties. Now that advance is like. So let's say I got paid 60 grand to do Broadway. I don't make anything above that 60 until that 30 grand has been accounted for in royalties. After I've been reimbursed by the royalties, then I will get a weekly percentage. Now, over the course of working on Constitution, we did the Amazon filming of it. You know we had another director come in and like film it. I made my entire fee again.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good, so that's pretty sweet.
Speaker 2:So 60 grand plus 60 grand plus royalties, plus the tour where I got paid again to rehearse the tour. I forget what that fee was exactly, but it was good. My estimate is that I probably made something like $300,000 over the six to seven years that I was working on that show, and I would be psyched to be working for $30,000 to $60,000 every time I do a show. But I'm also like I'm someone who's been maybe even stubbornly like in the downtown and, I guess, allergic to money or something. But it is like the reality of like, okay, I'm like $300,000. Also, though, I'll say 300,000 is more than I've made directing, probably in my whole career up until Constitution.
Speaker 1:Right. So that's what I want to know. This is Broadway pay, but what happens to a director that works on a small theater, which most of the work is? What can they make?
Speaker 2:So I haven't actually checked the numbers recently, like different theaters have voluntarily chosen to raise their rates. You know, I would call out like New York Theater Workshop, soho, rep, playwrights, horizons as of a couple of years ago again I'd have to like check this, but a second stage theater at one of the big nonprofits and that's like a hundred seat theater but it's a part of a theater that has a main stage. They would probably. I think the fee was something like $7,000.
Speaker 1:For the entire production.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for the entire production for a hundred seat theater. Now on again as of a couple of years ago, some of the bigger theaters which we're also paying, you know, union minimums, like we're in a union.
Speaker 1:So 7,000 is the union minimum.
Speaker 2:But for a small theater.
Speaker 1:For a small theater.
Speaker 2:I'm not in defense of it, I'm just saying like, yeah, let me give you the like, the layout.
Speaker 2:So I can say, a small theater on the low end pays seven, but I've been paid $4,000 to direct a play, a theater of that size as well. Different theaters of different budgets have different minimums. At the Public Theater, for example, at least a few years ago, they were paying like $12,000 to $13,000. But then at, like you know, new York Theater Workshop, they chose to raise their fees for artists a few thousand dollars above the minimum that they should be paying. But most of the theaters in New York one, you get paid less in general at New York nonprofits than you do at nonprofits in the rest of the country, and New York is a more expensive place to live, right, right? So what's happening is, you know so like, the union negotiates minimums and then all of the theaters just pay the minimums. Now the union also identifies in the contract that I've signed, every contract that we've signed, the first page of the union contract says nothing in this contract shall keep a director from negotiating better terms.
Speaker 2:On page two, you have the most favored nation's language saying we will not pay anyone else more than you. So my con I mean, I'm not a legal expert my contract reaches into everyone else's contracts and prevents them from negotiating. Cause I tried. When I got offered the seven grand I had sort of had it. I was like, look, I know it's a small theater and everything I was like, but I should try and negotiate. So I told my agent, let's negotiate it up. And they came back and said well, we have favored nations, so favored nations is you pay everybody the same.
Speaker 2:You pay everyone the same. Here's the challenge of it, and I started like digging further into this as well, because I was like, yeah, I want everyone to get paid the same. I guess, like I, that seems good, but the fact that we across the board have no ability to negotiate above a minimum, it means like we should stop negotiating minimums and instead we should negotiate a rate.
Speaker 1:right but I want to be clear after you were on broadway and your success, you also won an obi at some point, right?
Speaker 2:I I sort of technically two. I have a directing obi and I have an obi with the debate society. So yeah, two, two obi.
Speaker 1:I've won a bunch of after all of that, that's what they give you seven thousand dollars for a production yes, and just to be clear, I'm talking about the small.
Speaker 2:You know a smaller yes, of course I think as a younger artist I was like wow, this is great, it's fair, everyone gets the same. And in my 30s, making 30 or 40 thousand dollars a year directing plays felt like a total win.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, at 47, it's just not. It's not cute anymore. You can't pay your rent, and if you're not, then someone else is making up the difference. Either you know family money or saved money or partner's money. The theater is being subsidized, of course, by donors who are giving to the theater, but the theater is also being subsidized by by the artists.
Speaker 1:But wait a minute. In film, when a director wins either an Oscar or whatever award they win, don't they fee immediately goes up? Yes, so, what's wrong with your?
Speaker 2:union. Here's the thing the union has set the minimum right. The problem is, even though it's set under this idea that you should be able to negotiate above it, it is rarely done in New York City. It's different regionally. I am sure at a theater that doesn't do favored nations, I can get better fees. My agent has absolutely negotiated better terms in places where you can. The problem is I live in New York City. I would love to work in New York City more. City, I would love to work in New York City more.
Speaker 2:I started to try and offer my job to other people in the world. So, like I did this with Uber drivers, where I basically you know, I said okay, I'm a theater director, do you have a sense of what a theater director is? And they're like, yeah, they like make all the decisions you know for a play. And you know I was like do you have a sense of how like important a theater director is to a production? They're like. I was like do you have a sense of how important a theater director is to a production? They're like, yeah, really important. I was like, yeah. So I want you to imagine if you were a theater director and you're going to work for three months. It might be on and off and then six weeks, but it's three months of work. There's a lot of prestige, right, so people will look up to you. You get to be in a position of power. There's like a lot of benefits to it.
Speaker 2:Would you take this job for seven grand? And the Uber driver's like no, what? And I was like okay, okay, 10 grand. He was like no, 13 grand, no, 15 grand. No, I said okay, what would you need to do this job for three months? And they were like I don't know, 20, $25,000. I was going and speaking at a donor event. You know they bring us out to go talk to the donors to help, like you know, develop more income through donation and be like, ah, the director Applause around the revered director, right, and I go outside from that event. My name's on the marquee and I did the math and I was like they're paying me like $45,000 a year and I can go online and see what the artistic director is making. It just seems out of balance. It feels weird to be like revered and also hiding how poorly compensated you are.
Speaker 1:It would make me very angry.
Speaker 2:And there are a few examples in the theater industry, where some of these institutions have huge staffs and the people at the top are making a lot of money. It is public knowledge that Oscar Eustace is making between a million and 1.2 million dollars a year right.
Speaker 2:Now he's the artistic director of the public, I understand, and so like should he make what I make for a whole production? Three months of work in two days? So he's getting paid in two days, or three days or four days, what you know, a director would be paid for an entire production. So I look at that that's one example and honestly, I don't paint every theater under the same like, with the same brush, right? But I look at it and I say like, just like, make it, make sense to me. How important is the director?
Speaker 1:So what keeps you going?
Speaker 2:I just need to keep doing this and I'm trying to do meaningful work. I'm trying to find, like you know, unique stories. I'm trying to bring like my special sauce to the thing and either I keep doing that until I have like a Broadway musical hit Do you want to do a musical? Oh sure, yeah, I'm working on a musical with Craig Lucas right now and Emily Hall about the woman who gave LSD to JFK.
Speaker 1:Oh, I want to see that.
Speaker 2:Mary Pinchot Meyer. Yeah, oh, wow. She was way ahead of her time, spoiler. She was probably murdered by the CIA. It's a very interesting story about an interesting time, about conspiracies and the story we tell ourselves to survive.
Speaker 1:And where will you produce it? What theater would that be in?
Speaker 2:No idea, no idea, we're still writing it, so hopefully.
Speaker 1:It has a great potential, though the story yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:Wow, what advice would you give somebody that has a dream? You know, when you love the theater, you love the theater. You can't help it, yeah.
Speaker 2:What advice would you give? I'm embarrassed that I feel like I have like old guy, like dad, advice. Now I think that and I'm not talking about like your development as an artist I think, I, truly I think everyone can be an artist, is an artist of some kind. I think. Art, making art, making things together, community creation, is our like birthright. However, for the life of a director, you know, and especially if you are not someone who comes from family cash right, which is in every industry. Right, it is easier if you got loads of cash. Everything is easier If you don't come from lots of cash right, which is in every industry right, it is easier.
Speaker 1:if you got loads of cash, everything is easier.
Speaker 2:If you don't come from lots of cash. If you want to do this in any long-term way, you have to find a way to make the budget work. I highly recommend having something else that you can do that creates a level of stability for you so that you can strategically do the work, because it will be a period of time before you make anything close to a living wage over the course of a year, or figure out early how you're going to pivot into other ways. Some directors are directing TV and film. You have to learn that that is a whole different industry. Some of the personality maybe helps, some of the vision maybe helps, but like that is a technical thing to learn. Pivot into that.
Speaker 2:I've been working on writing. I have a TV show that I've developed with playwright Frankie Gonzalez that we're just starting to pitch. I've got other writing projects that I'm doing. I wish I had started the more invested sort of writing development years ago. I mean I did, but I mean like 20 years ago I should have been like I need to have this other thing.
Speaker 1:Well, hindsight is 20, 20 to everybody. I wish I've done things too. Yeah, you can go by that, yeah that's right. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:And I so, and there are other jobs. There are other jobs that you can do that make money, that create that stability. But I think that is my biggest advice it doesn't have to be a fallback plan, like the thing that you do when you decide you're not good enough to hack it. It needs to be some sort of a threaded existence where you can create stability and financial stability and all of the other stuff while you're continuing to develop yourself as an artist, like do it in concert and ideally. You know, I was a carpenter for years. I I was. I was going and building roof decks for the rich and famous and then I was like showering and changing in a in a bathroom and putting on normal clothes and going to the theater to go to rehearsal at night.
Speaker 2:You know I was like that was how I did it. I don't recommend it. It's a tough. That's a tough day-to-night Barbie transition but if there are other things that you can develop, it will give you the best chance of existing long enough until you can have that Broadway musical that changes your life.
Speaker 1:And can somebody start today? Would you recommend the way you did, doing it through a university, first the drama department. Is that the best way to start, you think?
Speaker 2:I mean, if you're already out of university, great, do it right. I think, if you want to start, get a group of people together, convince them to come and, you know, say the words you've written or someone else has written. Put it in a place, decide how you want it to look like you're directing and, oddly, I think, even though you won't feel good at it, you will actually everything about what you are doing in the first time that you like set out. There will be versions of that genetic material in your work for a lifetime. It's all right there, right? So I, you know, I ran my own theater company, the Debate Society, For years. We produced all of the stuff ourselves. We had jobs, you know, I was carpentry. My partners were working at a Mexican restaurant. We like, you know.
Speaker 2:You were three people in the Debate Society right, three people in the Debate Society Hannah Boss and Paul Thorine. You were three people in the debate society right? Three people in the debate society Hannah Boss and Paul Thorine who are now celebrated TV writers now and film writers. And, I think, starting your own company, getting a group of people together. Don't wait for any organization or any person to hand you a career, because there is no HR of theater who's keeping track of your good work and who's going to give you a raise or a job on any sort of like predictable increment. There are opportunities, you know. If that's what you want to do and develop yourself as an artist, just do it. Invite people to your apartment, do the reading there, get the lighting just right. Go find a space, make a budget, raise the money for it.
Speaker 1:You have to be the maker of it besides a drive that you must have if you want to succeed, what would you say? Other skill is very important for a director blind confidence is right.
Speaker 2:I think I'm too hard on myself, like I struggle daily with just like a level of I'm like oriented towards like self-criticism in ways that is not even like conscious, like. So, I think being really kind to yourself, celebrate the little wins, I think trusting your own creative evolution as a person. I did not feel as a young artist that I had any idea what I was fucking doing. I had no idea what I was doing. I had like instincts and vibes, but now, looking back, I'm like those instincts and vibes were connected to something. I just felt embarrassed to stand behind them.
Speaker 2:So I think, yeah, a level of like compassion for self and then whatever the sort of blind confidence, what I'm getting at and we can see this in many other parts of the world, our political world and everything there are full blown idiots in the world who get so many great things, sometimes because they are unable to even conceive of themselves not being good enough. And so, you know, whatever activates a little bit of just like dumb confidence and vision. However you get there, I think it's, I think it's just good to practice, as long as it doesn't, you know, push anyone else down.
Speaker 1:Do you still love theater or you prefer to be in TV now and film because of money?
Speaker 2:I don't know where I prefer to be. I love theater and I am actively looking for a new path to either create more stability in the theater for me for the rest of my life, or another way to use my skills in ensemble playmaking, storymaking, coaching, to use those skills and manifest my artist self in some other way. So I love the theater and I feel heartbroken by the theater. I love the people in the theater. There are no better people. I love the theatrical identity and orientation across the world Theater. People across the world have very similar senses of humor. The world Theater people across the world have very similar senses of humor. You can go anywhere and even without language, you can understand that we're like. We get it in a way that other people don't. And I feel heartbroken because of the pay.
Speaker 2:I guess I don't know. This is also what I'm embarrassed by. Yeah, I want it to be easier and it's not. I take responsibility for my part in that and I also feel like some structural problems are preventing it. Yeah, I'm trying to balance it.
Speaker 1:You mentioned before the winning and the losing, the roller coasters of emotions. What would you say is the biggest challenge as a director?
Speaker 2:Feeling invisible, you know, like you brought up Constitution. Feeling invisible, you know, like you brought up Constitution. Constitution was simultaneously the most amazing, edifying experience of my life. When I went to Broadway and also on Broadway, I was like I don't know that I'll ever achieve this again. This may be it. This may be like as good as it, as good as it.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I want to tell you that when I was sitting in the theater I was thinking about the director, because this is not an easy play to direct. It's a one character with another little child, you know, a little bit coming in and out, and I think there was voiceover. I saw it years ago. So I mean it's not like a musical. I believe musical is easy to direct. You know, it's full of action and dancing.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I thought I was sitting there and thinking about the director, so I don't know that. Actually, that was a good example for an invisible director.
Speaker 2:I fully hear you what I'm about to say. You know there's like little bits of shame and what I'm about to say. Right, but when I looked at constitution and look, awards don't matter, right, like, but I don't think any of our designers were nominated I, I wasn't nominated for anything. I can hear the voices of like oh my God, the big secret is out. Oliver wants to win some awards and I have. I like. Who am I complaining to? Who doesn't? So the challenge I have is this feeling of like, invisibleness and this lack of feeling that you do anything and it leads to some sort of verifiable stability. Arts programs are getting gutted. A close friend of mine works for the food bank in DC and after they laid off all those federal workers, they were out there raising money for what is the most immediate thing. It's like people need to be fed. I get it. How do I raise the alarm? Like I want an easier life and I want to make enough money to survive. And also, laid off workers need to eat. Like, where's the priority?
Speaker 1:I get it In the times that we're living now. I think theater could be so powerful in making a change.
Speaker 2:I mean we've got to step up. This is what we're made for. I agree it can be a very exciting time artistically.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to see the one about the woman that gave LSD to JFK. Jfk, you said right.
Speaker 2:Not RFK.
Speaker 1:Yeah, JFK it would be good if it was RFK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know what he's done. I don't know if he's taken enough psychedelics.
Speaker 1:It's either too much or too little, all right, and on that note, thank you so much, of course. Thank you, murat, thanks a million. Okay, okay, bye-bye. That's a wrap for today. If you have a comment or question or would like us to cover a certain job, please let us know. Visit our website at howmuchcanimakeinfo. We would love to hear from you. And, on your way out, don't forget to subscribe and share this episode with anyone who is curious about their next job. See you next time.
