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How Much Can I Make? — Real Jobs. Real Stories. Career Insights
How to Become a Lighting Designer: A Journey from Small Stages to the Tony Awards
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Lighting Designer
Ever wondered what happens behind the scenes to create the magical atmosphere of a Broadway show? Four-time Tony Award winner Kevin Adams pulls back the curtain on the fascinating world of theatrical lighting design in this illuminating conversation about his unexpected career journey. The most eye-opening revelation comes when Adams explains how Broadway designers actually make their (big) money.
Resources
https://tisch.nyu.edu/design/course-offerings/lighting-design
https://calarts.edu/academics/programs-and-degrees/mfa-lighting-design
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"How Much Can I Make?" Is nominated for 2026 Women in Podcasting Award!
Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
Weekly Royalties: Broadway's Secret Income
Speaker 1If you design a Broadway show , you get a weekly royalty , and if the show does really well , that's where you make some money . But then hold on , it gets better .
Speaker 2And it gets better indeed . Hi , and welcome back to how Much Can I Make ? I'm Erav Ozeri , a curious journalist that always wants to know what people do for a living and how much they can earn . This week , we're stepping into the spotlight , literally with one of the masters behind the magic of lighting . Our guest is a four-time Tony Award winner , kevin Adams . He's a lighting designer whose work has illuminated Broadway , las Vegas opera and many other productions . So let's find out from Kevin what does it take to become an award-winning lighting designer ? So , kevin , first of all , thank you so much for willing to do that . Nice to be here today .
Speaker 1Thank you .
Speaker 2Let's start by telling us how did you get into lighting design ?
Speaker 1I really wanted to be a performer . Like lots of young performers , I would do little puppet shows In high school . I was in plays and musicals . After a really bad audition for the Diary of Anne Frank , I had a high school teacher who very gently guided me into set design . He suggested I might want to be the set designer for the Diary of Anne Frank . I remember thinking like what's that ? And he explained it and then I just like I just took to that so quickly .
Speaker 1And then I went to the University of Texas in Austin and got a BFA in set design , never studied lighting , had no interest in lighting , didn't notice the lighting . I was just like really ambitious and dedicated to set design
From Performer to Lighting Designer
Speaker 1. And then I went to California Institute of the Arts and I went there to study more set design . But they also taught production design for film . Mtv premiered in late 1981 and in 84 it was still round the clock . You know music shorts , which was like thrilling at the time and I thought like , oh , this is something I want to be a part of . So I studied production design for film .
Speaker 1Didn't study lighting , had zero interest in lighting it was a two year program at an art school that costs so little at the time and moved into Hollywood . I worked in film a lot . I was a dresser , props dresser , set dresser , which I really loved Built scenery . I was an art director . I was a production designer . I worked on lots of like high-end commercials , like Bose speakers and Apple , and lots of beer like Budweiser and Budweiser Light , and then , because there's still lighting to come- Right , because you said you were totally not interested in lighting .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah . So I saw the work of fine artists that use light in their work at various museums . I saw that work a lot new work and old work and I saw that I could design a space around these things that I found in hardware stores light bulbs and fluorescent tubes that could make light and turn on and off very quickly and make a new space . And I started lighting my own little sets and immediately the phone started ringing with these really well-known . You know , in the late 80s and early 90s there was a huge performance art scene in this country . Well , rachel Rosenthal , this really interesting lady , called me that she had been performing . She was an older lady who shaved her head and I started working with her , lighting her shows , and eventually we had five different shows that we would do and john fleck was one of the nea four and he was my first la boyfriend .
Speaker 1I started lighting his work and doing little sets for him and then , like well-known directors would call me , but all these people would say the same thing
Discovering Light as an Art Form
Speaker 1. They'd say , hey , I saw that show you did . That's how I see my work . Do you want to come light my work ? And I'd say , like I am not a lighting designer at all , like I did . I did that little show or two and I'm a trained set designer , I know how to make shows and but I don't know anything about lighting . And they all said you know what , that's okay , come try this , and if it works , that's great , and if it doesn't , it's no big deal . Which was like really hard to say no to , you know , because these people were like making really interesting work and they were all really well-known . So I just started lighting little shows and each show got bigger so I was learning about theatrical lighting at the same time .
Speaker 2Do you prefer working on live shows or film ?
Speaker 1Once I became a lighting designer , I lit a music video when I lived in LA and that was shot on film . It was a Janet Jackson music video . I lived in LA and that was shot on film this Janet Jackson music video but that was for film and I did not understand how film captured light at all . I had a lot of help from the DP and the director . Now that film is digital or cameras are digital and the cameras mostly see what the eye sees .
Speaker 1I've lit some things in the last few years , like I lit part of that mildred pierce on hbo . Really , yeah , I lit there's a whole concert thing in the middle of it that I spent a lot of time on it's minutes of the film but I spent two months on it . That was digital and so what you see with your eyes , kind of what the camera sees , and you can have a monitor that with your eyes , kind of what the camera sees , and you can have a monitor . That's very similar to what's exactly what the camera's going to see . That's much easier to light and balance and that I could understand . I like that no reviewer is going to come to it and review it and I like that we don't go through that process that we go through in New York City with theater which is , but I assume , assume , when the lighting is right , the reviewers will not even notice anything .
Speaker 2It's only yeah .
Speaker 1I think I've been mentioned in reviews , like I mean maybe 10 times I mean shows that I've won Tony's for , like they don't even mention the lighting . It's just like no , they just don't talk about they don't people know how to talk about it . They don't recognize it , they don't see it . They don't talk about it . They don't recognize it , they don't see it .
Speaker 2They don't see it , I know . So let's say , a director or a producer comes to you a Broadway show . After four Tonys , I'm sure a lot of them come to you Somewhat . Yes , so they come to you with a play . First of all , do you have to live the play that you work on .
Speaker 1Do I have to like it ? Yeah , you know , when you light a show , a musical , you have to hear those songs a lot like over and over and over and over and over . If I don't like the music or if I don't get the music , I would say no .
Speaker 2Once you design the lighting , do you have to be there for every show ?
Speaker 1No , you're pretty much off the case . Like once a show opens , you're done because they can't afford to have programmers and they have to pay everyone to work more . So do you . That plan is not to pay anyone do you automate the lighting ?
Speaker 2yeah ?
Speaker 1yeah , so uh , there's a programmer , which that is a great field to get into . There's a huge console we call it which is a computer . It gets more complicated every year and there's a person I talk to and they program the lighting into that console and then come opening night , that person's moved on to another job . I've moved on , my assistants moved on , my associates moved on , and then there's a group of people in the theater who maintain the show and there's one guy who presses . You just press go . The stage manager calls a cue like q1 go , q2 go , q3 go .
Speaker 1So it's like that the producer would come to you and offer you the job or director uh , all kinds of people uh , it's usually a director will call me and say , hey , I'm doing this thing and I'll be like I'll find out who else is working on it and send me the script so I'll read it and listen to it . Sometimes it's an unfinished script . Sometimes , if it's an opera and it's new , you get nothing other than like a topic because it doesn't exist yet . For an opera uh , for musical . Sometimes there's a recording of like a workshop so you get the recording .
Speaker 2What do you do ? You start drawing what you're gonna do ?
Speaker 1I just listen to it . I just sit and listen to it .
Speaker 2You get the atmosphere . I mean , what inspires you ? Usually just let .
Speaker 1What is the story ? What ? What's the music like ? What kind of music is it ? I do a lot of shows with electric guitars . I do a lot of like rock pop shows . I mean , everyone does now , but I had done , I have done a lot of like rock theater shows .
Speaker 2Do you do special effects in those , like special effects with light ?
Speaker 1Oh yeah , I mean yeah , yeah , just smoke . Lots of smoke effects , lightning effects , fire effects , like flame in a barrel and like what else Lightning , you know ? Like flame in a barrel and like what else Lightning , you know ? Rain , things like that . For Swept Away that I just did on Broadway , I hung 30 industrial-sized carpet dryer
Creating Special Effects for Broadway
Speaker 1fans around the theater , why there was a huge storm in the show and so we had wind blowing through the entire theater . It was really neat .
Speaker 2That's part of your job . I would think that's part of your job .
Speaker 1I would think that's part of the set designer no , that it's a , it's an effect , it's a special effect that I knew how to do . We had rain in the show too , but that I didn't know how to do and we had , I think scenery kind of took care of that so when you did 30 fans , that must have been very noisy , no it was , but it's a really loud storm and the storm covered it up .
Speaker 1But yeah , when you turned it on it sounded like you were in a huge HVAC system . I mean , it was quite a loud rumble .
Speaker 2Right , but you didn't hear it when the storm ran .
Speaker 1It was really amazing , but you'd feel it and it would stop and start and stop and start and the whole theater felt it .
Speaker 2It was really neat stop and start and the whole theater felt it was really neat . Wow , that's an experience for an audience . I'm sure that's pretty cool . Yeah , wind , did you ever work with a diva , either in opera or film or theater , that complained about the lighting ? She doesn't want wrinkles to show , or something .
Speaker 1No , I mean you . We are , we are obligated to especially take care of the women and make sure they look good , and especially the older women . They want to look good , but you also , like I , go up and talk to them often and tell them how good they look and you're looking great , and they want to know that you're taking care of them understandably . And those , those women who are like solid show women , like patty lapone and honor mcdonald they're like not divas at all , they're amazing . They want to look good and if they didn't , they would tell you . But you take care of them and they're amazing women . I worked with Faye Dunaway not long ago and that was , that was an absolute trip . Why ? Well , she's by far the most complicated person I've ever worked with , but also was like fascinating , you know .
Speaker 2Oh really .
Speaker 1Everything I was hoping it would be .
Speaker 2She was amazing . Who was the greatest to work with from all the women ?
Speaker 1Oh , patti's amazing . I did a lot of things with Patti LuPone and Audra McDonald . They're all just like show folk . Those are all just like Patti's like a Jersey mom . I mean , those are all just like show folk . Those are all just like patty's like a jersey mom . I mean , those are all just like show folk . You know , they're great . They show up early to work every day and they work hard and when all the kids like leave on breaks or lunch , they're like still working and they'll stay after and work and those are really really hard working smart people and I love they're , you know , and they're show folk . They're funny and weird and neurotic and you know everything that show folks are and from the guys who was the most difficult to work with .
Speaker 2Difficult , oh pleasure I can't .
Speaker 1There were some like super lazy tenors who were just like coasting through the show . They're just handsome guys who kind of coast .
Speaker 2We talked before that you don't know really about pay , because after four Tonys and eight nominations right , that's correct . This is crazy , kevin . It's crazy . So you're on a total different echelon . But if somebody starts , yes , can you give us an idea ? What can they make ?
Speaker 1I have no idea . You know I'm in a union . We have minimums for designers on shows . I don't make minimum .
Speaker 2Do you know what the minimum is ? Any idea ?
Speaker 1Well , it's plays and musicals are different . A Broadway musical there's phases , there's like a musical with one set , then there's a musical with two sets . There's all these different categories . I think it's like 12 or 16 or 17 or 18 000 for a show , for a week for a show . For a show not for a week , uh
How Broadway Payment Systems Work
Speaker 1, then you get paid . If you design a broadway show , you get a weekly royalty . If a show does well , what do you mean ?
Speaker 2weekly royalty ? Wait , I never heard about that .
Speaker 1Yes , yeah , yeah , yeah , that's how we make money . If a show runs , like the Lion King or Book of Mormon or so many other shows that aren't my shows , if a show runs , every week that it runs , you get paid . And then you get paid a minimum which in the last few years is like $500 or $750 or $1,000 a week , and then on top of that there's cycles of royalties . So every four weeks they count up the box office , they deduct the cost of running the show , then they divide what's left up . Everyone has a percentage based on their contract the writers , the , the director , the choreographer , the designers , the actors .
Speaker 2It's the creative side , what they call but wait , I need to understand this because I never heard about it before ? Yes so let's say you work on the lion king you design the lighting .
Speaker 1Let's say that .
Speaker 2Okay , yes and you designed everything . Everything is now basically on half automated . Maybe you have somebody that pushed .
Speaker 1You still get the royalties . You still get the royalties , but then , hold on , it gets better . So then your production of the lion king is running in new york and then it's running in la and many other places correct . It tours around the us and the world . One or two tours it's running in dubai and south africa and fucking shanghai , it's all over the world . Yeah , yeah , and you get paid for all of those oh , wow indeed , that's a great job .
Speaker 1Indeed not many . There aren't many designers on broadway and there certainly aren't many people that have shows that run like that . But , yes , that's where you can make some money , like . I have two tours out now that from shows I did on Broadway that are selling really , really , really well and you make a lot of money . Wow , yeah yeah , that's a sweet thing , correct .
Speaker 2So whoever worked on the Phantom of the Opera didn't have to work again .
Speaker 1She died . But correct , she was found dead in her tub .
Speaker 2but yes , Really , oh my God , I feel guilty for laughing , no , no , no no , no , the set designer .
Speaker 1I mean you know people die and that show was a long time ago . But yeah , I mean yes , yes , yeah , yeah , I mean they made that was a show from the 80s . So they , like people make so much more now because of current contracts . But yeah , those people made a lot of money . They were making that was an 80s contract , so they were making not near what people make now yeah , but they made it for 30 some years , yeah oh , totally .
Speaker 1And that show ran everywhere and toured everywhere right every day , every week , you get a check from all those Wow In Didi , it's great , okay , which . If you do a show in Vegas most shows in Vegas that you design they don't have royalties , they just pay you one big lump sum . Some shows will give royalties , weekly royalties , but a lot of shows will just pay you a chunk of money and then you open the show and you're done . I mean , a fee could be 50 000 or 60 or 80 or you know something like that .
Speaker 2Wow yeah , it doesn't take that long to design a show .
Speaker 1Right to design lighting for a show I spend about a year in pre-production on the show . I mean , that's not every day but if we start a show out of town , I start usually a year before that we start in meetings , lots of meetings . Then the set is designed , then we do the plot . So you know , that's like four hours here , four hours there , four hours you know it's not every day .
Speaker 2A year that's a lot of work correct and you're on the job .
Speaker 1You're doing other shows also , then rehearsals like four or five weeks . I myself this , most people don't do this but I go to like three weeks of that rehearsal . Then you're in the theater for uh tech . So , like in tech , uh come in at 10 , work 10 to 12 and we start rehearsal and stage at one and then we'll go to like a shorter day is like one to nine , but sometimes we'll go to one to ten or 1 to 10 30 . So I'm there like maybe 8 in the morning till 10 , 30 at night . Wow , but I have a lot of work to do and I you know I have a lot to do .
Speaker 2So do you actually hang the lights too , or you have people ? Are you kidding ?
Speaker 1no , I don't , wouldn't , I've never touched , I wouldn't know how to do that .
Speaker 2No , there are people who do that for a living so you just give orders , put this light there , put we draw it all out .
Speaker 1And then my associate draws it all out . There's a production electrician . The show hires a production electrician . He's like the head electrician . He takes the drawings , he figures it all out like where everything's going to run . He oversees the hanging , the installation of the plot . Because when you do a Broadway show you're renting a completely empty theater . There's nothing in a theater no lights , no rig , nothing . There's no lights , there's no Wi-Fi , there's no air conditioners . There's a whole wardrobe department that needs washers and dryers and steamers and hangers and shelves
Technology Revolution in Theater Lighting
Speaker 1. There is nothing . They bring everything for production . Correct , it is an empty box . I mean you might have like an AC unit in a window here and there for a dressing room and there might be some chairs in a dressing room and that's it . It is an empty building . So we each department gets all this stuff and installs it all and that's part of like the load in and the .
Speaker 2So you're installing like a complete business in a in a theater so part of your job is to order all the different lights that you're going to need for the show yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1So my associate makes a shop order with the production electrician because every this all comes out of a shop that they bid on , and then there's a weekly rental cost okay and every single cable screw piece of gel gel holder .
Speaker 1Everything you would ever need is in that shop order . I don't understand what most of it means , because it's like monitors and monitors and all kinds of cable and I mean it's just like pipe and ladders and genie lifts and you get an empty box of a building that you have to put a show up in that's so crazy .
Speaker 2I thought that they give it to you with the lights and you just change them around .
Speaker 1No , no , no , no , because those lights , well , every show is different , every set's different , so you need lights in different places . But also , now , lighting is like if you went into a theater , you would want to update all that stuff . You know now , like moving lights are changing so quickly , so we get whatever's on the shelves that's probably newer and install it all , and the lights aren't going to hang at the same place every time . Yeah , but anyway , to answer your question , I don't hang the lights . There are , then , electricians that are hired by the show and maybe whoever owns the theater I haven't quite figured this out and they hang the lights and I go in and watch occasionally and point .
Speaker 1I'm not allowed to touch anything .
Speaker 2Oh , because it's a different union , of course it is , but also they take pride in me not needing to touch things , but like on a film .
Speaker 1It's definitely like don't touch that . Like it's , that's definitely union , divided labor of who touches what .
Speaker 2So yes , do you find that it helped you that you worked at your earlier life before you got into lighting ? You work in sets . You worked in that . Do you feel that it helps you that you worked at your earlier life before you got into lighting ? You work in sets . You worked in that . Do you feel that that helped you in your profession at the moment ?
Speaker 1Yeah , totally , because a lot of what I . There's two kinds of lighting to me . There's the kinds of lighting where the lights are visible , there's no masking , and the overhead lights are visible and the side lights are visible . Or I have things more inside the space that are visible and the side lights are visible , or I have things more inside the space that are visible . Those things are really informed by my work as a set designer how they occupy the space and how they frame the space and all this stuff , uh . Second kind of lighting is the lights are not seen because they're all behind masking and borders .
Speaker 1Right , that's more just like traditional theater lighting right like , I think , most of the things I did at the Metropolitan Opera , the lighting was hidden . Half the things I do on Broadway I did a lot of shows where the lighting was visible , like American Idiot and Spring Awakening , but about half the shows I do now the lighting's not visible .
Speaker 2We mentioned before , before we started to record how technology changed over the years , can you give us a little taste of what it's like now , compared to what it was ?
Speaker 1Yeah , on the planet Earth .
Speaker 2No , you're not on Mars yet .
Speaker 1We have just gone through , in the last 16 , 17 , 18 years , we've gone through this transition of this energy efficiency transition To LED , to LED In your homes , the deli , the big box store , in the theater , in the theater . Oh , yeah , yeah , absolutely . That happened all in just 14 or 15 or 16 years .
Speaker 2But can you have like a direction light with an LED ? Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 1I mean it was quite crude . I think the first LEDs were used on Broadway , like in the early 2000s , mostly just to light backgrounds , right , because they were . I can see that . Yeah , like Spring Awakening , I had these huge walls and they were lit with LED Next to normal . I had a background that was lit with LED led and then eventually the color improved and the direction the thing you're talking about and you could light humans with led . Like for spongebob , the musical , I didn't have much gel at all and it was the people , the backgrounds and the scenery and the people were lit with led .
Speaker 1Often there's no heat buildup . You would get on a set that's tight and that heat just builds up , right , especially like behind , and now it doesn't and it's great and you don't change color as much because color is not burning or it's LED . It's like making the color . I did three musicals on Broadway that used a huge amount of fluorescent light Spring Awakening , next to Normal and Passing Strange . Each used a tremendous amount of fluorescent tubes and fluorescent light bulbs and none of that stuff exists anymore . The cool thing about LED is it comes in all these different shapes and gadgets and doodads and sizes , so there's a huge amount of lighting instruments we can choose from , but they're LED and the colors have gotten quite nice . You can light humans now . It is changing so quickly , the lighting industry .
Speaker 2How do you keep up with the changes ? How do you know ?
Speaker 1now I have young associates who know what's going on .
Speaker 2You read about it all the time .
Speaker 1Yeah , and they go see . They work on lots of different things and they know what the shop has and they know they're like , oh , you might really like this , or there's this new light that's come out with no fan , it's really quiet and you might like it .
Speaker 2and they know okay , I have to ask you about all the tony's that you want yes first of all , I want
Tony Awards and Career Highlights
Speaker 2to know about the first one . When you got the phone call , what did you feel ?
Speaker 1you get nominated , so you get a call in the morning . Usually my agent calls me and says hello , how are you this morning ? And I'll say oh , what's going on ? I'm just lying here in bed . Is something happening ? We have this old game we play . Then it used to be four weeks between the time you're nominated and the Tony Awards .
Speaker 1Now it's five weeks , so that's torture . And then the awards are in June . It's hot and you have to get dressed up . That part's a pain , like what are you going to wear ? It's hot . It's a long , long , long , long , long , long day and night . But the biggest thing is preparing a speech . Like , oh my God , I have to get up in front of the entire world at Radio City Music Hall and say something . So I'll like practice and practice and practice and practice and practice . That that's the scariest thing . Then , once you get through that , it's a different night .
Speaker 2So you were nominated eight times and won four times . Correct , so the four times that you lost were you highly disappointed .
Speaker 1No , the first time I didn't win . I was nominated twice that year and I knew that . Which shows were there ? Hair and Next to Normal , and I had won the year before . I'd won two years before . So you know , I didn't have any complaints and to be nominated twice was amazing . Yes , but it's really hard to win . And also I knew that Billy Elliot would win . Someone had told me like , if you know you're not going to win when you go , it's a much funner night . And boy , is that true ? Oh , really , yeah , because you can wear relaxed shoes , you can just enjoy the night . And that four or five weeks of torture between the time you're nominated and the night there's less torture .
Speaker 2How come you knew you're not going to win ?
Speaker 1Like I could tell you months ago what's gonna win this year . You said sunset boulevard . You think will win this year . Yeah , probably , I knew that like the day they open , they're probably gonna win it . I interviewed the makeup person for that and the wig maker yeah no , that would probably win the lighting for lighting this year , the winning nights . I just it's a long night and I end up just like on the sofa , sleeping like . Just like it's so tense . It's a lot to go through .
Speaker 2And you make a lot more money after you win , right , I mean , your career just takes off .
Speaker 1Yeah , in theory I mean Spring Awakening like really moved me to a different category of designer and that included more money . But partly that was because that show really I was like 40 something and that show really showed off my ideas I had been working on for years really clearly . So I had really good ideas that were presented in a really good show , that were really on the radar , and so it was not only that I got a Tony , but it was like that I did some excellent work that really shined . All that together kind of made like a career life change .
Speaker 2Is there one show or performance that you worked on that excited you the most , that you're proud of the most ?
Speaker 1I worked on Hedwig and the Angry Inch
Hedwig and the Angry Inch
Speaker 1.
Speaker 2Many , many , many times , which was a fantastic show .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah , we started . I worked in the first off-Broadway production in 97 , I think we did that at the Westbeth , which is not even there anymore . We opened at the Jane Street Theater on February 14th 1998 , and ran for two and a half years . I designed Hedwig in several cities . We couldn't give the tickets away . No one wanted to come see a rock and roll drag queen . No one knew what that was , or no one cared what that was , and then I did it on Broadway in 2014 .
Speaker 2And that's when you got the .
Speaker 1Tony , I did , I did , but I always loved working on that show because I just love the songs . By the time we got to 2014 , people knew the show , People knew the songs . Like I said , in the 90s we couldn't give those tickets away because the movie came out and all this stuff and people were just . It was sold out every night and they brought this amazing energy in and they couldn't wait to be in this room with Hedwig and it was so thrilling . You know , they were just . They were so open to it and excited by it and yeah that's neat , excellent , that part's great .
Speaker 1All and yeah , that's neat , excellent , that part's great , all right , and on that , note .
Speaker 2Thank you , yes , so much for doing it so interesting . Yeah , yeah , I , the royalty thing really . Wow , I didn't know about it . That's how we now .
Speaker 1I wish I was alive . I know that's how we make a lot of money okay , that's a wrap for today .
Speaker 2If you have a comment or question or would like us to cover a certain job , please let us know . Visit our website at howmuchcanimakeinfo . We would love to hear from you . And , on your way out , don't forget to subscribe and share this episode with anyone who is curious about their next job . See you next time .
